Indonesia is almost 10,000 km away from Ukraine – a flight throughout continents, cultures, and full histories. Solely about 8,000 of the greater than 240 million Indonesians are Ukrainian. If anybody dares to deliver up Ukraine, they’re anticipated to additionally deliver up Palestine. And whereas Indonesia formally values freedom of speech, the fact is… selective. Criticising the authorities? Dangerous. Speaking about Russia? Safely "impartial". Speaking about Ukraine? All of the sudden "political".
On this atmosphere, the place the conflict is known as the "battle in Ukraine" and any point out of Russia is politely prevented, understanding the native perspective on Ukraine-Russia relations is hard. It’s an area the place colonial historical past, anti-Western sentiment, strongman politics and Russian narratives mix into a singular – and infrequently misunderstood – image.
To untangle it, we spoke with Radityo Dharmaputra, lecturer within the Division of Worldwide Relations at Airlangga College in Surabaya, head of the Centre for European and Eurasian Research, and one of many few Indonesian lecturers specializing in Ukraine, Russian international coverage, and Moscow’s disinformation campaigns in Indonesia.
Radityo has spent the previous three years finding out how narratives in regards to the conflict journey, mutate and settle within the Indonesian public consciousness.
How would you characterise the official Indonesian stance on Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, and the way it has modified since 2022?
I believe it hasn't modified that a lot from my viewpoint.
From the very starting, the official stance was all the time attempting to maintain a distance, attempting to be impartial, attempting to not offend Russia, however on the similar time saying that the invasion is a violation of Ukrainian territorial integrity.
Though they by no means say that it’s being performed by Russia. It's similar to Western nations; when speaking about Palestine and Gaza, they by no means say Israel.
Within the Indonesian case, they by no means say that it was Russia who invaded Ukraine. They don't wish to use the phrase "invasion", which may be very attention-grabbing from my viewpoint.
[BANNER5]
What phrase do they use?
I believe they often simply use "the conflict in Ukraine". No point out of Russia.
However who began this conflict?
It's very foolish, I do know. However I believe it's been very clear from the start that they don't wish to offend Russia. Within the final authorities of Joko Widodo [president of Indonesia from 2014 to 2024], he personally went to Ukraine and to Russia. He was attempting to mediate between Zelenskyy and Putin, however it was principally due to Indonesia's curiosity within the meals disaster. After that, only one go to, and no dialogue got here from the federal government.
However again then, the minister of defence and now President Prabowo, two years in the past, in Singapore, supplied this so-called "peace proposal". Which once more was very problematic, particularly the referendum half. It’s an excessive amount of even for Indonesia, as a result of Indonesia additionally has issues with a whole lot of provinces.
There’s a willingness, I believe, particularly from President Prabowo, to become involved. He has repeatedly talked about Ukraine and Russia at BRICS. Additionally, when he went someplace in Egypt, he talked about Ukraine and Russia. Once more, it's all the time "peace is essential", "negotiation is essential". And I believe from the federal government's viewpoint, they really need Ukraine to barter.
I can perceive that from the Ukrainian viewpoint, it's unacceptable. However from the Indonesian viewpoint, particularly from the federal government's, I believe they’ve this custom. Even with their neighbours – with Malaysia, for instance. I wrote an article about this with my colleague, as a result of we and Malaysia are brothers. And brothers combat, so it’s important to speak along with your brother. And their notion of Ukraine and Russia is that they’re like Malaysia and Indonesia, as a result of Russia has used this narrative right here. And I believe this really exhibits that many individuals within the Indonesian authorities do probably not perceive the foundation explanation for the conflict.
I requested a number of high-ranking ministry officers a few months in the past, they usually nonetheless mentioned, "Yeah, however we want them to have a dialogue." For instance, Indonesia attended the peace summit in Switzerland, they usually didn't wish to signal the paperwork as a result of they mentioned that Russia was not invited. They wished Russia to be there after which to speak to Ukraine.
Once more, it's very problematic, the best way they see it. However I believe you simply have to know that that's how they see it as a result of they obtain a whole lot of info, a whole lot of messages coming from Russia that "that is our inner Slavic brotherhood factor". They usually perceive that, as a result of it's similar to Indonesia and Malaysia.
[BANNER1]
Principally, it's a geopolitical issue inside Indonesia that influences all the choices of the Indonesian authorities?
That as properly, as a result of the invasion after which the conflict have all the time been portrayed by Indonesian media, international media in Indonesia, and in addition by Russian media, as if that is Russia towards the West, Russia towards NATO.
And for the Indonesian facet, we don't need outsiders to come back to Indonesia. We don't prefer it when folks, particularly from the West, come to Indonesia and say, "You need to do that" [this is probably connected with the fact that the Dutch colonised Indonesia – ed.]. And from what they perceive, I believe it's as a result of it's framed because the West and NATO towards Russia. Ukraine is rather like a pawn within the center. That's why they mentioned, "Yeah, that is simply the West wanting you to combat. It’s best to speak to Russia."
I believe that’s due to the lengthy historical past between Indonesia and Russia within the Soviet Union, however within the Indonesian mindset, it’s all the time Soviet Russia. Not different nations, not even Ukraine. It's all the time Russia and all these connections with Russia: "Russia has nice energy", "Russia is Indonesia’s pal from the Soviet interval". It shapes their viewpoint that we nonetheless wish to be buddies with Russia.
For those who have a look at writings from former diplomats, from senior officers, particularly originally of the full-scale invasion in 2022, they all the time pitied Ukraine, as a result of Ukraine is in a really tough place between two powers.
From their viewpoint, it's the identical with Indonesia, China and the US, and we are attempting to be within the center. I’ve argued with them earlier than immediately that "No, it's very completely different as a result of China will not be there, and Indonesia will not be its neighbour." It's not aggressive, at the least in mainland Indonesia. So you can not actually examine them, however that's how they suppose.
And out of your viewpoint, what was the start line of this narrative that it's Russia towards the West, Russia towards the US, and Ukraine is only a pawn?
I believe it began even earlier than 2022. You possibly can see such statements in 2014 as properly, when the Crimean annexation occurred.
I believe the federal government mentioned very clearly then that we don’t settle for that annexation, it's unlawful, and so forth. That was a bit stronger than the present response. However on the similar time, you possibly can see that they mentioned: "Yeah, however then it’s important to speak. That is nonetheless the western affect in Ukraine, particularly with Maidan."
I believe there was the identical assertion from the Ministry of International Affairs, though they condemned the annexation of Crimea by Russia, they usually talked about Russia on the time, however then they mentioned, "Yeah, however this revolution in Maidan, it's Western, it's not the folks, it’s Western affect." So all these narratives have been there – propagated by Russia, in fact.
On the similar time, Indonesia by no means trusts the US. The opposite European nations are in all probability a bit completely different, however the US, particularly after 2001, 2003, after the conflict on terror, the time below Bush, has been attempting to meddle in different nations’ affairs, and Indonesia doesn't like that.
They’ll simply put their expertise after which see: "Oh, perhaps the US can also be current in Ukraine and attempting to affect Ukrainian society." So, even earlier than 2013-2014, it was already there.
And the issue earlier than that’s that nobody actually checked out Ukraine. I don't suppose even Ukraine checked out Indonesia that a lot. That's additionally an issue, as a result of Ukraine will not be actually current in Indonesia. I believe the embassy simply began [to be more present] a few years in the past. So it's very comprehensible.
However Russia has been right here for a very long time. You possibly can see that they’ve excellent cooperation right here already. I'm not saying they’re influencing the Indonesian authorities, as a result of that will imply the Indonesian authorities actually listens to them, however the best way they really discuss Ukraine, and never solely Ukraine – Georgia, all the opposite nations – is as a result of Russia framed it like that. Russia framed it to us as "That is Western affect – 2004, 2008 in Georgia."
[BANNER2]
Are you able to inform that Russia has someway formed this narrative with propaganda inside?
Inside society, I believe, it's clear, particularly since 2015-2016, proper after the Crimean annexation. But it surely was not about Ukraine again then – it was about Syria. Russia’s intervention in Syria again then, serving to Assad, wasn't acquired properly inside the Indonesian Muslim group. They didn't need Russia to come back, particularly with the expertise in Afghanistan and Chechnya. So that they wished Russia out of Syria, principally. A whole lot of Muslim communities, particularly the extra conservative teams, demonstrated in entrance of the Russian Embassy in 2015-2016.
And I believe, beginning that yr, Russia began to take a look at Indonesia extra, as a result of they know that this majority-Muslim nation (not solely Indonesia, however Indonesia was one of many largest) is essential for their very own narrative, as a result of in any other case they may get criticised by all these Muslim majorities. So that they began utilizing Russia Past the Headlines [an English-language tool of Russian propaganda now known as Russia Beyond – ed.] as a result of they didn't have RT right here again then. Russia Past was simply this cultural introduction to Russia. I believe in 2016 they began to change the narrative utilizing this Muslim dimension.
So that they're attempting to affect Indonesian views utilizing public diplomacy, utilizing their media. Or at the least to form the view of Indonesian society into one particular narrative, particularly the Muslim half. The anti-Western view, or view that’s extra essential of the West, is already there. They don't must do something. It's already right here. They only want to select the identical narrative. So long as they criticise the West, folks will soar in and can comply with them.
There may be one other effort, I believe, not by the Russians, however by Indonesian politicians, attempting to say that Putin is a really robust chief. And Putin may be very well-liked in Indonesia. I believe it began in 2014 – that was the election between Joko Widodo, the previous president, and the present president, Prabowo.
And the present president was portraying himself at the moment as this robust man driving horses, however not bare, not like Putin.
So he was impressed by Putin?
Sure.
The present minister of tradition, Fadli Zon, has a level in Russian literature from the College of Indonesia. He mentioned in 2019, "We’d like a president like Putin right here, and Prabowo is the one. A robust chief, nationalistic and so forth." So I believe that's how folks see it. He isn’t as well-liked as different Muslim leaders from Saudi Arabia, Türkiye, however nonetheless, in comparison with the others, in comparison with Biden, Obama… However don't examine him to Zelenskyy. Zelenskyy's down there [he points downwards – ed.].
Sadly, he’s down there due to many issues, however Putin is all the time thought-about a robust chief – not solely due to his anti-Western rhetoric, however it's simply the best way he’s portrayed himself, typically with faux photos, however nonetheless, it's extremely popular amongst Indonesians.
The present President Prabowo has now modified his picture a bit into extra of a pleasant grandpa, and it really works. However earlier than, it was a militaristic normal, very robust, anti-western, nationalistic.
To start with, particularly in 2022, I believe Russia was fairly shocked that even earlier than the intensive or intensive propaganda that they did, there was already a really robust narrative sympathetic in direction of Russia – due to the Muslim dimension since 2016, due to the robust man Putin, due to the anti-Western mentality, due to the historical past and custom, post-colonial historical past and so forth. Additionally, the historical past of the Soviet Union serving to Indonesia within the Nineteen Sixties.
However Indonesia is a really anti-colonial nation, and Russia tries to colonise different nations. How can this stuff coexist?
I believe that is very essential: not many individuals know that Russia and the Soviet Union at the moment colonised different nations or had a really imperial technique, or that the imperial dimensions of Russia have been there, even throughout the Soviet Union.
I wrote an article again then about Estonia, Georgia, and why all these nations don't need something to do with Russia, as a result of they’ve their historical past: within the Twenties, within the 40s, how Russian troopers entered Estonia after which principally colonised the nation. I don't suppose Indonesians find out about this. They suppose it was only one massive nation – the Soviet Union, which is Russia, after which out of the blue it broke up into 15 completely different items.
They don't perceive that contained in the Soviet Union, even again then, there have been already efforts from Ukraine, from Estonia, from Kazakhstan and all of the nations principally attempting to combat the Russian empire, the Russian imperial narrative, Russification of the language, and so forth. They don't find out about this.
It's very tough to speak to folks and say that Russia is imperial and a coloniser now, as a result of they are saying, "No, they helped us towards the actual coloniser, which is the West."
Russia is all the time perceived by Indonesia because the anti-imperial nation from again then – the Soviet Union. Indonesia doesn’t perceive that even now, inside Russia, there are a whole lot of smaller nations that have been principally colonised by Russia.
[BANNER3]
Indonesia lately turned a part of BRICS. How has this influenced Indonesian engagement with Russia and the World South? Do you suppose that after becoming a member of BRICS, Indonesia will turn into nearer to Russia?
My criticism in direction of the present authorities is that they don't have a imaginative and prescient. Not less than, we can not see that there’s any imaginative and prescient from the federal government. And the president actually simply likes to be amongst nice leaders, particularly robust males.
And there’s no higher method to supply him that than BRICS. As a result of in BRICS, you might have Lula, Putin, Xi Jinping, and Modi. Typically Türkiye can also be invited as a candidate or as a accomplice. So you might have all of the robust males of the world there. Primarily based on that alone, I don't suppose BRICS is a really strategic transfer by the federal government; it's only a very pragmatic resolution.
You possibly can see that even the federal government remains to be attempting to say, "No, no, we don't actually think about BRICS as us going nearer to China and Russia." They nonetheless attempt to have interaction with Trump. They provide Trump no matter he desires for the commerce deal. Trump desires every part, after which they are saying, "Yeah, yeah, we'll offer you that." So that they’re principally attempting to sit down on two chairs.
However the issue is that from the opposite means round, China and Russia will use Indonesia. This can be a massive nation, Muslim majority, one of many leaders of the World South. The chief of Southeast Asia, if we will nonetheless declare that.
So for China and Russia – particularly for Russia at this second, with all of the isolation, all of the sanctions – it is rather essential. And I don't suppose the Indonesian authorities realises that. For them, it's simply "We have been invited – we simply go." Prabowo desires to be there, to see Putin.
Take a look at all the choices, all of the MoUs [Memorandums of Understanding – ed.] that have been signed throughout his go to to Russia. It's simply promise after promise after promise. No actual funding from Russia. I don't suppose Russia can put money into something anyway.
So from the Indonesian viewpoint, it's probably not useful. It might be, particularly with Trump performing like Trump did. BRICS might be useful for Indonesia, however they don't actually use it in the mean time. They're simply there for the ceremony. And that's the issue.
In the event that they wish to stability the US, BRICS may be platform, however on the similar time, we don't actually use it. We're getting used, particularly by Russia. And that's the issue.
I don't care if you wish to go to BRICS to achieve one thing. And I believe all of the nations wish to acquire one thing from this. And we have already got funding from China. We have already got cooperation with Russia, with India, with South Africa, and with Brazil. Why do we have now to go to BRICS? That's a giant query. Sadly, it looks like he [President Prabowo – ed.] is shifting nearer to China and Russia. However I believe it's simply because China and Russia know tips on how to use Indonesia and tips on how to invite it.
I mentioned the identical to Western companions: he [President Prabowo – ed.] simply desires a stage. Put him on a stage, give him an opportunity to provide a keynote speech – he would go. And that's what occurred when he went to Russia as a substitute of going to the G7 in Canada – as a result of Russia let him have a speech. It's not a giant discussion board. It's simply assembly Putin after which going to the St Petersburg Financial Discussion board, which isn’t actually a giant discussion board. It's not for Indonesia's funding. They really requested him to put money into Russia, as a result of Russia wants the cash. However he went there anyway, as a result of he mentioned they invited him first, and, in fact, he would get the stage. He could be there with probably the most senior members.
So I believe this isn’t about getting nearer to BRICS. You need to know that Prabowo's international coverage is pushed initially by ambition, private view, attempting to be on the world stage.
I believe Macron did an excellent job inviting him to Bastille Day. You already know what he mentioned when Macron invited him? He mentioned, "The final time I used to be in Paris for Bastille Day, I used to be within the again row. Now I might be there within the entrance row" – and he went there.
So he's type of narcissistic.
In a means, he’s. Simply give him what he desires. He desires a stage. He desires a speech. Give him that.
And if Ukraine invited him to a significant occasion and gave him a keynote speech, do you suppose he would come?
If Ukraine invited him, the issue is that Russia would do one thing to steer him to not come. So Ukraine wants another person – the European companions. So, let’s say, organise a convention or a gathering. A convention could be good. France, Germany and the UK – all of the "massive three" of Europe in the mean time. Zelenskyy is there, and also you invite folks like Prabowo, like Modi, to provide a speech. He would possibly come – until Russia does one thing on the similar time: organises a convention with all the opposite leaders.
However Zelenskyy alone can not… I believe the capital that Zelenskyy has right here in Indonesia might be fairly low. I believe in 2022-2023, when Ukraine began to combat again with the counteroffensive, the assistance from the US, Europe, the UK – they gave some huge cash to Ukraine to have a counteroffensive. And it labored. Not less than the best way I see it, it labored. It modified the dialogue a bit of bit.
After which 7 October occurred [the escalation between Gaza and Israel – ed.], and the primary assertion from Zelenskyy that Indonesia heard is "We’ll assist Israel." Sadly, thatʼs what folks remembered. The day after that, many individuals in our group – I believe the general public in our group – mentioned, "I’m performed supporting Ukraine. How can I assist them when the president mentioned that?"
And he backtracked later, and when he visited Singapore final yr, he had a really completely different speech, criticising Israel and so forth. However nobody remembered that second half.
And when he mentioned that, I used to be like, "Oh God. What can we do now?" As a result of it’s very tough. That's why a whole lot of completely different narratives about Ukraine began to go down since 2023. It was very tough to say something about Ukraine.
I wrote an article about how we also needs to assist Ukraine, as we assist Palestine. Ooooh… You possibly can think about lots of people attacking me on social media due to that.
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How can we alter this narrative? Are there any alternatives for Ukraine to get again on monitor?
I believe there are two methods. A method is to go massive into soсial media, exhibiting that Ukraine additionally helps us. And I believe the MC [Muslim communities – ed.] have performed that to some extent. However it is rather tough as a result of Russia clearly appears to be like at what Zelenskyy says and makes use of it for its personal functions.
The opposite means is to go to the native communities. I believe that's what we did earlier than. The group that went to Ukraine in December 2023, once I went – I believe there have been three or 4 Muslim leaders from Indonesia.
We met with all of the Muftis – the Crimean Mufti, the Ukrainian Mufti, and the previous Mufti who’s now a soldier within the Ukrainian military. We met with the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars. And we confirmed them that Ukraine really has a whole lot of Muslim communities, and the Muslim communities in Ukraine have an excellent reference to the Ukrainian authorities, they usually additionally criticise Zelenskyy.
Then the Ukrainian Muslim leaders got here to Indonesia final yr, in 2024. They met with native communities. However that didn’t translate to social media. So in case you look solely at social media, it’s nonetheless strongly essential of Zelenskyy, as a result of Russian propaganda may be very robust on social media.
However in case you have a look at the communities, the Islamic council, the vast majority of folks now know that "Oh, Ukraine will not be like that. Even when Zelenskyy mentioned that, it's Zelenskyy's place."
I inspired the Ukrainian group final yr to deliver the Mufti – I believe it was Murat Suleimanov from Ukraine – not solely to Jakarta, however to the smaller Islamic communities. In fact, they’ve restricted funds and so forth, however in all probability that's a greater use since you're simply going to a really conventional Islamic group, you speak to them.
Once more, as I’ve talked about a few instances to many Ukrainian buddies, you can not counter it within the brief time period as a result of Russia has extra assets.
They're not just like the Chinese language. The Chinese language in Indonesia are attempting to be very delicate. Russia will not be delicate. You already know this higher than we do – Russia will not be delicate. And it's very tough for Ukraine to counter that due to the restricted assets.
However one factor that I believe they don't have is that this reference to the Islamic group that you may really use – the Crimean Tatar dimension. I believe, though they nonetheless don't say something about Russia, I believe they need peace in Ukraine, after which they put of their assertion that they need freedom for the Crimean Tatars to return to Crimea. Really, you understand, this can be a very robust assertion, as a result of if they need them to return to Crimea, meaning Crimea would return to Ukraine and turn into free, not like now.
Yeah, Crimea has been occupied for 11 years. Many of the political prisoners there are Crimean Tatars who can't communicate their language or do no matter they wish to do there. They’re very restricted. So I suppose perhaps it's a connecting level.
The connection is there. It simply must be developed additional. I believe perhaps that's one method to go ahead as a substitute of combating on social media, which may be very tough anyway.
However in case you rely upon that, it implies that the opposite Muslim half is being dominated by Russia, they usually can invite Islamic leaders from Indonesia to Russia very simply. Additionally they deliver folks from Chechnya. Indonesians love Ramzan Kadyrov for some cause.
Critically?
Yeah.
He's additionally a robust man, so…
Yeah, that's the issue. I believe that's a really deliberate transfer by Russia: "Oh, they love robust males, let’s put Kadyrov there."
It's very tough, however you might deliver Crimean Tatar leaders to Indonesia to speak to the Muslim communities, and they might see that Crimean Muslims have been discriminated towards by Russia they usually’re struggling rather a lot. Perhaps their sympathy wouldn’t stretch to Ukraine as an entire but, however at the least there could be some connection.
I do know that you’ve got an thought to start out the primary Ukrainian Research programme in Indonesia. Are you able to elaborate on this?
Yeah, in 2022, once we inaugurated the Centre for European and Eurasian Research, we invited the Ukrainian ambassador right here in Indonesia, and in addition two professors from Estonia. We tried to debate this at the moment, simply a few months after the full-scale invasion began. We tried to concentrate on Ukraine as a result of I noticed that there should not many individuals who find out about Ukraine in Indonesia.
After which we developed that concept in 2023. We organised a convention on the World South non-Western Response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Within the final two years, 2023-2024, we organised cooperation with Ukrainian universities, with the Ukrainian Catholic College in Lviv. We organised 5 joint programs on Ukrainian politics and society, the spiritual dimension in Ukraine and Indonesia – principally cooperation between Ukraine and Indonesia. And based mostly on that, we’re attempting to organise a course.
Making an attempt to start out a Ukrainian Research programme may be very tough in the mean time, as a result of in all probability there will likely be no rapid curiosity. Final yr we organised a Ukrainian Politics and Society course with the assistance of individuals from the Ukrainian Catholic College and the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, after which we invited a number of professors from Ukraine on-line.
Final yr it was nonetheless below Battle and Peace Research in our course. However subsequent yr, in February, we’re going to begin an precise class in Ukrainian Politics as part of our curriculum. So a brand new curriculum: for the subsequent 5 years, we’ll introduce Ukrainian Politics.
So it’s a course that individuals can select?
Sure, folks can select it. Primarily based on our expertise on the college for the final two years, there are a whole lot of college students who actually wish to find out about Ukraine due to the information, due to the conflict. They actually wished to know extra, they usually took the course.
For subsequent yr, we simply had a brand new curriculum accepted by the college, and one of many programs is a Ukrainian course. I believe we’re the one ones in Indonesia beginning to give a course. Not but a level, however a course.
Principally, the folks from the college noticed that college students have an curiosity on this they usually’ve agreed that it is going to be a programme?
Sure, hopefully, relying on how many individuals are enthusiastic about finding out Ukraine and Japanese Europe. Let's see the place that goes.
We often have solely American Politics and Society, Russia, China, Australia… all of the neighbours of Indonesia, greater nations.
And now we're introducing two: Taiwan and Ukraine. So hopefully the scholars will get extra , after which we will suggest one other topic sooner or later. However based mostly on the previous couple of years, often round 70 persons are out of 150 college students a yr – half of them.
Alina Poliakova, Ukrainska Pravda
Photograph: Ardiansyah Arsha
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