Thirty years in the past, Sarajevo was surrounded by artillery, snipers, and silence from the remainder of the world. Bosnia was at war with Serbia and Croatia. Contained in the besieged metropolis, Aida Čerkez, a younger journalist, was overlaying the warfare for the Related Press from her basement newsroom, dwelling underneath fixed shelling, with no electrical energy, and with the gnawing sense that nobody was listening.

Within the early days of the full-scale invasion, she wrote a letter to Ukrainians telling them that "Ukraine will stand, the remaining will move."

Now, three many years later, she speaks to Ukrainians from a spot we haven’t but reached: "afterwards". Aida has lived by warfare, grief, exile, return – and the lengthy, messy street of making an attempt to construct one thing human from the rubble.

A few of her reflections might not sit comfortably with Ukrainian readers. She talks in regards to the weight of hatred, the ethical fog of trauma, and the damaging attraction of righteous anger. However maybe that’s precisely why her voice issues now – not as a result of it echoes our personal, however as a result of it disrupts the echo chamber.

On this interview, Aida shares what it means to maintain reporting when the world appears detached, what silence permits in warfare, and why – even after the whole lot – she nonetheless believes we are able to plant timber we might by no means see develop.

We recorded this dialog in Lviv throughout Lviv Media Discussion board 2025.

"It’s possible you’ll not even reside to see peace and the consequences of your work. But it surely'll be there"

You as soon as stated that when you had been in Sarajevo underneath siege, you lived with the phantasm that exhibiting the reality could be sufficient to cease the warfare. Do you bear in mind the precise second whenever you misplaced that phantasm?

It wasn't one second, it was a course of. It was possibly two years into the warfare… I believe it was throughout a type of peace negotiations just like the one going down at present [this interview was recorded on 16 May as the talks between Ukraine and Russia were taking place – ed.]. And folks simply stopped counting the peace negotiations at 300.

A few of these peace negotiations would really begin with huge artillery assaults on Sarajevo, which was a sort of stress on the negotiators.

So, you will have this concern of peace negotiations as a result of they're going to be violent for us whereas they're speaking in Geneva. They're going to be pounding on us with the intention to put stress on our negotiators. I bear in mind individuals coming down the hallway in my constructing saying, "Peace negotiations are beginning – let's go to the basement."

So lots of them failed that in some unspecified time in the future I requested myself: what am I doing? You realize, this has no impact on the general public. This has no impact on the negotiators. This has no impact on overseas governments. So who am I really speaking to? Realising that for 2 years you've been reporting day and night time, and nothing – zero – makes you sort of break down and suppose "It's not value it." However the truth is the method is so gradual.

You might be altering public opinion. It's simply so gradual. Once you're being shot at, each minute counts. You don't have time for years. However this stuff take years.

It's this discrepancy, your impatience and actuality – the truth which is you’re altering the world, however it's so gradual you may't see it. Precisely just like the avenue I used to be speaking about [during the discussion panel before the interview – ed.]: you will have this lovely avenue filled with timber. In case you search for, you may't see the sky as a result of the timber are so lovely and grown, and the individuals who planted them knew that they might not reside to see this avenue. And it took 100 years possibly for these timber to develop and be that stunning and switch it into this lovely avenue.

It’s possible you’ll not even reside to see peace and the consequences of your work. But it surely'll be there, and that is one thing it’s important to realise, the slowness of the method and your impatience. It'll take many years so that you can see the outcomes. Possibly you by no means will, however it will likely be there.

You realised that afterwards, so far as I perceive…

I realised that many years after the warfare, 20 years after the warfare.

Throughout that interval whenever you had been there, how did you combat frustration? How did you combat these emotions that you just had no energy over this?

I cried.

I cried so much, after which these tears changed into hysteria, after which I began laughing and joking about it with different individuals. In the long run, it simply changed into an enormous joke. You simply carry on rolling, and typically you simply report as a result of it's your job. However that's not sufficient.

It’s a must to see a goal. I believe that in some unspecified time in the future you’ll contribute to a change that might not be "peace", however it might be a change of angle, a change within the world consciousness about issues. You’ll contribute to that.

It might not be good for Ukraine, and quick sufficient for Ukraine, however belief me: daily you’re switching one particular person from not caring into any person who’s conscious of different individuals and cares about different individuals. And that one particular person out of the seven billion is value what you’re doing.

What recommendation would you give proper now to Ukrainian journalists and activists who’ve realised that their articles now not provoke any motion from the authorities?

Okay, what I’d say to them is: attempt to think about a world by which you all cease reporting. What's that going to appear like?

Unhappy.

Uh-huh. So, are you bettering the world along with your articles?

I suppose so. I hope so.

What's the choice? No data? You realize what which means? Meaning turning the sunshine off and letting the dangerous individuals do regardless of the hell they wish to do with out anyone seeing it. No less than you're making it seen. Visibility provides some sort of a assure that it's not going to worsen. And that's what you're doing – protecting the sunshine on. As a result of when it's darkish, it will get ugly.

So, it’s possible you’ll suppose that you’re watching massacres and also you're watching wars and also you're watching injustice and you’re exhibiting it to the world. However belief me, should you cease, it's going to get a lot worse. Within the darkness, far more is feasible than in daytime.

Throughout your panel, you talked about that the media shouldn't be indignant and provoke extra anger. Once you reported through the siege of Sarajevo, how did you retain your self from getting indignant and stay an expert journalist?

It's tough, however possibly not, you recognize. It’s a must to sort of develop some sort of a bipolar..

Actually?

I noticed myself as bipolar. One facet of me was personally affected by this warfare. However I knew that if I let my feelings enter my articles – and I used to be working for overseas media – I wouldn’t be trusted.

So, on the time we had solely heard about drones as one thing that may occur sooner or later, and any person defined to me what they had been. I at all times imagined myself sitting there seeing the scenario from my perspective, which is the attitude of a sufferer of an enormous atrocity.

However then I’d sort of think about myself being a drone, after which it from above, like God or an angel or a drone or one thing, after which report about it.

That may permit me to exclude my feelings from the report. It wasn't that onerous as a result of the information are already horrible. You don't have so as to add dangerous phrases to them. You don't have so as to add lies to them. Even what is going on isn’t plausible.

The reality is even tougher to imagine. You don't have so as to add something to it. And you’re coming at this from the ethical facet of this example. So it's simpler for you. Think about what it’s like for an sincere Russian who actually desires to report what's happening.

After the primary half a sentence, he will probably be in jail, and after six months, lifeless. Typically that's worse than this, you recognize? And I solely discovered that after the warfare, after I found how many individuals in Belgrade had tried to inform the reality and had been killed.

So I realised later it was really a lot simpler for me underneath sniper hearth and underneath bombs. You're simply sitting in a basement, however a minimum of you will have the impression that you just're on the proper facet of historical past and also you're doing the proper factor.

That's a lot simpler than being on the mistaken facet of historical past and making an attempt to do one thing about it. I’ve a number of respect for my colleagues in Bosnia who lined the warfare, however I’ve extra respect for individuals I met later who suffered the implications in their very own society, in their very own nation, of solely making an attempt to inform the reality. And I’ve to inform you, that's worse. Since you're expelled out of your neighborhood, and it’s possible you’ll find yourself lifeless.

No less than right here on my facet, we're all along with a sense that we're victims and we're proper. In that sense, the sincere individuals on the opposite facet are the larger victims typically.

When the full-scale invasion began, you wrote a letter to Ukrainians since you had been on the identical facet as Ukrainians at the moment are. What motivated you to do that?

I used to be indignant. I used to be so indignant as a result of it was occurring once more. I used to be indignant at everyone as a result of I had seen that this was going to occur. No one has navy workout routines on their overseas border with out eager to roll in.

What was the aim of that? It was simply that no person wished to [see this – ed.] besides us in Bosnia – we noticed all of it coming, however we have now that have. Then I believed, "Man, why is it that no person in Europe or in Ukraine may imagine that this was going to occur, and it was solely us in Sarajevo who knew they had been going to assault you?"

That's after I realised that it was as a result of we had that have, and if we didn't share it with the individuals over there, then what? If all of us die and our expertise dies with us, then it was all for nothing.

Individuals who’ve gone by this type of factor and have any sort of expertise ought to share it with others, as a result of then it turns into frequent information, and that’s progress. Not studying one thing after which dying with it – that's not progress. I noticed my letter and my warning to Ukraine as precisely that – a warning and progress.

You must know what's coming your manner. I didn't. However it’s best to study. From my expertise, it'll make your life simpler. And tomorrow when this ends, do the identical for the following one within the line.

You noticed the identical phases of the start of the warfare now and the warfare then…

Similar.

Possibly then you may inform us what errors Ukraine shouldn't repeat now.

Watch out what narrative you develop. As a result of when all that is over, it’s possible you’ll get consumed by hatred. It gained't have an effect on Russia. They don't care whether or not you want them or not. However your society will probably be caught in hatred that may block you from progress.

You shouldn’t neglect what occurred to you. However you shouldn’t be obsessive about it. That's why it’s best to attempt to keep away from hate speech. As a result of hate speech will poison the following era. You're passing down trauma to the following era. You must warn the following era and make them conscious of the historical past and the hazard, however not move in your trauma.

As a result of it can block them from rising up as regular individuals. Many individuals made that mistake in Bosnia, however on the whole, many individuals bought over it.

I at all times have to say and bear in mind there’s a metropolis in Japanese Bosnia referred to as Srebrenica. There was a genocide dedicated over there. So, the moms of the victims have an affiliation. I’ve been surprised by their braveness in in search of the reality, insisting on [justice in the] courts, however reaching out to the progressive individuals in Serbia.

They stand collectively each 11 July: the Moms of Srebrenica and the ladies in black from Belgrade stand collectively subsequent to the graves. That may be a therapeutic course of for each of them. It doesn't matter what it seems like, however for each of them it's a therapeutic course of. They're above the battle of countries.

They’ve understood that it's a battle between good and dangerous, and so they're each on the nice facet, as an alternative of accusing a nation of being dangerous and I'm good, mine is nice. That's mistaken as a result of it can simply block you. They’ve understood that there are good individuals on each side.

In case you resolve to be among the many good individuals on this planet and never simply to be a Ukrainian, it's far more than simply being a member of a nation.

How a lot time handed earlier than this occurred?

I believe it took possibly 5 or 6 years. Very quickly. Very quickly.

Truly, the ladies from Belgrade reached out, and there was this hand that accepted, and so they met and cried and now they're sisters.

For me as a Ukrainian, that's onerous to think about…

It’s onerous to think about. Sure, it was for me, too.

"Being a refugee is so dangerous and so hurtful, it's simpler to return"

Particularly proper now in the course of the warfare. I wish to perceive how it’s doable, since you are already in a post-war interval – one which I can’t even think about. What does it appear like?

I'm speaking to you out of your future. I’ve to inform you that sooner or later, you’ll discover out what number of victims the Kremlin regime has brought about in Russia.

You’ll study this seven-year-old lady who drew a Ukrainian flag at college and her father is in jail. As a result of a little bit lady isn’t even Ukrainian. She's nothing. She in all probability… Now, why would a little bit lady do this? Are you aware why?

As a result of she in all probability heard a dialog at house the place individuals had been in all probability saying, "Our nation is doing horrible issues to Ukraine," and so they're proper. She picked up on that and expressed it in a drawing at college. In fact the authorities knew that a little bit lady couldn’t invent that. So her father is in jail. You’ll hear about many such fathers.

You’ll hear about individuals who died in jail as a result of they criticised this aggression. You don't hear about them now as a result of they're invisible and you may't hear them. No one can, as a result of the regime is so harsh that they only disappear in a single day.

Sooner or later when the whole lot is over, it can begin popping out. You will note how some resistance was current in Russia. And that individuals died due to it. Similar to you died due to the identical regime. It is going to shock you. It shocked me.

I journey all around the world, and wherever I am going, there are Serbs. They left through the warfare. I take a look at them and I believe, "This man selected to go away his nation endlessly due to what his nation was doing to me. He misplaced his nation due to me." In fact I can sympathise.

They’ve new lives, they're blissful, however they misplaced their nation. They are going to by no means come again. Their kids communicate English or German, and that household is misplaced endlessly for Serbia. Without end and ever. Their kids don't even communicate Serbian due to what others of their nation did to me, and so they're victims.

Twenty, thirty years later, you realise that, and then you definitely cease hating everyone. You’ll realise what number of victims there have been on each side – extra on yours, however some on theirs as effectively.

I’ve many colleagues which have needed to go away Russia endlessly as a result of they criticised the Kremlin narrative. They reside in Riga or [wherever – ed.]… That's not straightforward. They're refugees due to what's occurring to you. Open your coronary heart a little bit bit to these individuals.

However there’s a distinction. They had been in opposition to the regime, and that's why that nation misplaced these individuals. Within the case of Ukraine, there are extra refugees which our nation has additionally misplaced simply due to Russia. How can we evaluate this?

That's statistics. There are extra Ukrainian victims than Russian ones, is that what you're making an attempt to say?

No, I’m saying that the individuals we lose should not victims, they're refugees.

They're victims too. In case you lose your nation, you're a sufferer. To lose your nation is horrible. If it’s important to transfer and it's not your selection, however you're kicked out by both circumstances or a regime, that's not your selection, you're a sufferer.

It’s possible you’ll be dwelling fantastic. Let me offer you an instance. My mom was a refugee in Germany. I used to be in Sarajevo. On the time, I used to be indignant with each refugee as a result of they’d deserted us. To me they had been traitors, together with my mom, despite the fact that I made her go away so she may take care of my youngster, you recognize. However there was this emotional rift between us.

I felt like I had the higher hand as a result of I used to be right here and he or she wasn’t. Significantly after one dialog. There was a horrible day when there was shelling and it was actually horrible. I believed, "She's continually sitting watching the tv. They're going to report on this, she's going to be anxious. Let me name her." I had a satellite tv for pc telephone as a result of I labored for a overseas firm, in order that was a uncommon privilege. I bear in mind we crawled underneath the tables, and I took the satellite tv for pc telephone down and dialled my mom and stated, "Hi there." And it was hell throughout me, just like the ceiling was falling down, and I used to be sort of holding the handset so she didn't hear the bombs.

I stated, "Hey, I simply wished to say that there's a little bit assault on Sarajevo however I'm fantastic. How are you?" And shortly finish it so she couldn't hear the bombs. And that is what she says: "Oh, we're good. Hey, do you will have a type of cordless telephones in your workplace?"

I used to be like "No, why?" "Oh, I simply learn in {a magazine} that cordless telephones may give you mind most cancers. So you probably have one, simply don't use it. Take a telephone with a wire." And the partitions round me are collapsing. She's enthusiastic about mind most cancers and cordless telephones. And I stated, "Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, I’ve to go. Bye." And I hung up, and my colleague underneath the opposite desk stated, "What did she say?" I stated, "She stated I shouldn't use a cordless telephone as a result of it may give you mind most cancers." We're already in a constructing that's falling aside. And he seems out at me and says, "Oh, I want I may die of most cancers."

They're completely completely different views, and people views can break up a society into those that see themselves as courageous sufficient to have stayed and defended the nation in no matter manner, a minimum of simply by being there, and those that left, who’re traitors and cowards.

Nicely, I believe I’ve advised you about after I had pneumonia and I left, and I needed to keep in Germany, and I bought this doc that stated Germany was going "to place up with me" as a refugee [the Duldung, a German residence permit – ed.]. It’s so humiliating. And sitting there and never with the ability to do something to assist your loved ones, and your nation, and your pals again house, is horrible. It's insufferable.

I’ve one uncle who… We by no means talked about it, however my aunt advised me. They had been in Vienna. He was working from house and he or she would go to work, and he or she is aware of that each time she left the home, he would swap off the electrical energy and water within the house and sit there within the darkness.

It was simpler for him to deprive himself of meals, water and electrical energy, pondering that despite the fact that they had been in Vienna, this manner he was exhibiting solidarity. It was completely pointless, however it made him really feel higher. That's no life to reside. It's no life to reside. It’s tough to be a refugee. It’s horrible to be a refugee.

In case you ask me, I had the prospect to be a refugee and to be within the worst siege since World Conflict II. And I selected the siege. Being a refugee is so dangerous and so hurtful, it was simpler to return. I don't even know what the query was.

How did you not lose the reference to these individuals who had been refugees, together with your mom and youngster?

Oh man, when she got here again… We had been like two horns in a bag, continually clashing. She felt that she didn't belong there as a result of we had been mistreating her with our angle.

And it was true. You're invited to some get together, and really quickly you see that someway the individuals who stayed in Sarajevo are in a single room after an hour, and those that had been refugees are in one other room. They’ve their conversations and we have now ours.

They really feel horrible in our presence as a result of we’re continually exchanging our experiences that they weren’t a part of. They really feel insulted by this. It’s survivors’ guilt. They really feel responsible for not being there.

My son, after he got here again to Sarajevo, was confronted with this when he was within the firm of youngsters who had been in Sarajevo. He began self-harming. As a result of he wished to share the struggling. He felt that he wasn't a part of his surroundings as a result of he hadn't been by regardless of the different kids had been by.

So he began slicing himself. It took a number of time for him to heal. Is that good? Is that life?

No.

So, the injuries that refugee standing leaves in your soul are typically worse than these of any person dwelling in Lviv. Belief me.

How can we reinclude these individuals in society?

Time will inform you. Cease speaking continually about your experiences through the warfare. It hurts them. Your resentment in the direction of them is… a minimum of ours. Like they weren’t a part of society. Like they had been intruders. Like they don’t have anything to say.

They need to not even vote – that was the concept.

Some individuals are saying that in Ukraine now.

Yeah, what provides you the proper to vote? I gave you that passport, and it’s best to at all times be grateful to us. And in a manner that's true, however take into account this: ladies and kids in wartime are a burden. They need to go.

They’re simply extra mouths to feed, and that's why I despatched my mom and my son away. I don't have water for them. They don't contribute to the scenario. They only eat my meals. And I’m contributing to the resistance, I'm doing one thing.

They’re simply sitting there consuming and ingesting and utilizing my sources. So I despatched them away. Go and do this elsewhere and go away the whole lot for me, as a result of I'm doing one thing. That's the sensation you will have. So principally I chased them away from their house. That was not honest, however it was a sensible factor to do.

Now they bear their very own wounds from that, and I’m responsible for chasing them away.

It took till 2017 for me and my son to repair our relationship, as a result of he grew up with the sense of me having deserted him as a result of I despatched him to Germany. Till 2017, we by no means had an actual, sincere relationship.

It was fastened in 2017 as a result of we had been capturing a film and we had been recreating the scene after I despatched him out. I invited him to be there, and he watched that scene all day lengthy as a result of it was continually repeated – motion pictures are terribly boring to make.

I believe when he went house after that, he modified his thoughts and noticed it from my perspective – someway the following day the whole lot was fastened. Our entire relationship was new within the morning – on the snap of a finger. He wanted to grasp what I did, and now that he has kids, he understands it very effectively.

So we have now a significantly better relationship now than we used to have earlier than. That's what wars do.

I don't wish to evaluate, however possibly some individuals from the occupied territories will learn this, and the siege seems like you’re unnoticed, you don't know what's happening. One way or the other individuals within the occupied territories who haven’t any entry to correct data really feel the identical. What are you able to recommend they do?

Have they got the web?

I suppose so, however web sites which aren’t Russian are largely blocked.

Sure, in order that's not having the web.

Sure.

Nicely, they're uncovered to sure propaganda. I don't know in the event that they're shopping for it or not. However I’ve at all times thought that it's even worse to reside in occupied territories than underneath a Sarajevo siege, which is taken into account the worst. One way or the other, it's simpler for me to hearken to bombs than to the sound of the boots of troopers coming upstairs. I at all times most popular to hearken to artillery and bullets. You possibly can conceal from them. You go to the basement.

However whenever you hear troopers’ boots developing the stairway, and you recognize that there's nowhere to go and in 30 seconds they’ll enter your house and do no matter they need – for me, that sound of the boots was at all times worse than bombs. So have some understanding for them.

They’re dwelling underneath a very completely different menace, a way more actual menace than you’re.

Greater than 30 years on from the siege, have you ever ever considered altering your choice and leaving the nation at that second?

I’ve by no means regretted it. I’d not have been in a position to sit elsewhere and watch it on TV with out doing something.

I’ve associates, for instance – and I'm nonetheless associates with them – who stated, "I believed initially, ‘This isn’t my work. Screw this, I'm going to go.’" They're Canadians now and have completely no feeling towards Bosnia. They're Canadians, however we're nonetheless associates. It's okay.

I’m not that sort of particular person. I couldn’t have watched it on TV. I needed to do one thing about it. I felt it was an assault on my persona, on my satisfaction, on the whole lot I stand for. I'm not an individual you may come as much as and say, "Get out of right here. That is mine. Out!" – and I am going. I’ll a minimum of put up a combat.

However I perceive individuals who go, as a result of that's far more rational than what I did.

"I do have the sensation that I’ve modified the world a little bit bit, and that's sort of the aim of everyone"

You advised a narrative about your expedition to Antarctica [during the panel discussion – ed.]. You stated that there are higher professions, like researching penguins, or ice, or one thing else. Did you remorse having devoted your life to investigating warfare crimes?

I did. I checked out these scientists in Antarctica and I believed, "What an amazing life." They don’t have anything to do with wars, or warfare crimes, or warfare criminals, or organised crime. Why the hell did I select to cope with this stuff?

That is insane. Wouldn't it have been a lot nicer simply to analysis ice and fear about penguins and stuff like that? It might. However that’s what I did. I don't remorse it. I don't know if I’d do it once more. However I do have the sensation that I’ve modified the world a little bit bit and that's sort of the aim of everyone, proper? To deliver humanity ahead. They're bringing humanity ahead huge time. However I did it my manner and so they did it their manner. Their job is nicer, mine is uglier, however we're on the identical mission.

So yeah, I may have chosen higher, however I don't remorse it.

You additionally talked about the ebook that you just wrote in regards to the siege of Sarajevo, and also you stated that it's horrible and also you'll by no means publish it.

No, it sucks.

And was it therapeutic writing for you…?

No.

…Or was it re-traumatisation?

It was re-traumatisation. I don't know why I did this to myself.

Typically I’d be writing and vomiting. And ultimately I stated, "Why am I doing this to myself? Look, the solar is shining outdoors. I ought to take my canine out and go for a stroll. Why am I going again to the previous? As if anyone's going to study something. Nicely, in the event that they haven't discovered one thing by now, they're not going to study it from my ebook." So I ended. Possibly I’ll proceed in the future, however I don't really feel able to undergo this. I don't wish to waste my time on an unpleasant previous.

Does that imply that some tales don’t should be advised afterwards?

Oh, all tales ought to be advised. It's simply too painful. Any person else ought to do it.