Janine di Giovanni has spent over three many years chronicling wars. One of many world’s most famed warfare correspondents, she has reported from practically each main battle of our time: Bosnia, Syria, Rwanda, Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Ukraine.

Her reporting has appeared in The Instances, Vainness Honest, The New York Instances and The Guardian, and she or he has acquired quite a few awards for her brave journalism, together with the Braveness in Journalism Award from the Worldwide Girls’s Media Basis.

However Janine’s work goes far past journalism. Because the founding father of The Reckoning Project, she now works to rework tales of warfare into authorized proof – constructing instances for worldwide justice.

In Ukraine, her focus has shifted to crimes that don’t at all times depart craters: compelled russification of youngsters, indoctrination in occupied territories, and the quieter violence of reminiscence erasure.

On this interview, Janine speaks candidly about justice, trauma, Putin’s impunity, and what it means to withstand – not simply with weapons, however with testimony.

We recorded this dialog in Lviv throughout the Lviv Media Discussion board 2025.

"The Ukrainian authorities is the primary authorities I've ever labored with that we work with"

Your work is about documenting warfare crimes. When did you perceive that it’s extra than simply documenting?

I felt prefer it wasn't sufficient that we have been simply documenting Bucha or baby deportation. It's one factor to make use of it as journalism, however it's one other factor to make use of these tales to attempt to put the people who do these crimes in jail the place they belong. So how do you try this?

You documented the testimonies, and you then work immediately with the prosecutors so that you could assist construct instances towards Putin. And never simply Putin.

It's vital to get him, however it's actually vital to get the people who did the torturing, the killing, the murdering, who function the drones, who’re driving the buses taking the kids away, who bomb the hospitals in Mariupol, who torture Ukrainian troopers which are prisoners of warfare. All these individuals are breaking worldwide legislation.

There’s something referred to as the legal guidelines of warfare, the Geneva Conventions, which ought to be maintained and adopted. Should you don't comply with them, you’re breaking the legislation, and also you should be punished. So that is how accountability works, and what worries me now’s that we dwell in a world the place there may be a lot impunity. Individuals get away with it. Putin will get away with it.

Netanyahu will get away with it. Netanyahu is ravenous two million individuals to loss of life. He's not let meals help go into Gaza for 10 weeks [as of 16 May – ed.]. He's not punishing Hamas – he's punishing infants who’re dying. He ought to be punished for this. You can not function as a frontrunner committing warfare crimes and, in his case, genocide.

Putin can’t proceed to wage a warfare and commit hideous crimes towards civilians, bombing Ukrainian hospitals, colleges, prepare stations the place civilians are gathering, attempting to evacuate.

So, it's actually vital to me that these crimes are investigated, documented, after which given to prosecutors so that they might be tried in courts of legislation.

You talked about instances when Russians bombed the Mariupol drama theatre and Kramatorsk railway station. Nevertheless, how do you doc the crimes that don't depart behind explosions and our bodies; when it comes to informational warfare, how do you doc, for instance, compelled russification of Ukrainians?

It’s fascinating you ask that as a result of we’re working now on indoctrination. Indoctrination shouldn’t be against the law. It's not codified, it falls between worldwide legal legislation and worldwide humanitarian legislation, however indoctrinating youngsters – not simply youngsters, adults as properly – within the occupied territories, taking away their idea of being Ukrainian. The very first thing they do after they take the Ukrainian youngsters and deport them is that they take away their names they usually give them Russian names.

They take away their language. They’ll't converse Ukrainian, they’ve to talk Russian. They take away their id. They're now not Ukrainian, they’re Russian.

After which indoctrinating them into the Soviet, not Soviet however Russian mindset, whether or not it's by patriotic music or songs or poems or Russian authors relatively than Ukrainian authors, all that is indoctrinating individuals, and it's what Pol Pot did in Cambodia. It’s a crime.

Proper now, we're engaged on attempting to analyze the place does it fall within the legislation. Deportation is against the law, however indoctrination is type of a grey space. So it's actually fascinating you ask about that as a result of to me that’s one thing actually disturbing and actually worrying.

So what ought to we do as Ukrainians and organisations like The Reconing Mission, to carry these individuals accountable?

We're engaged on it. It's actually vital for us. We've simply revealed a report.

As a result of it’s fascinating that nobody is trying into this. Okay, you’ll be able to drop bombs and you’ll go to Bucha and assassinate individuals point-blank. We all know these are warfare crimes. However to take a inhabitants in Ukraine’s east and principally start to work on their minds… As a result of youngsters earlier than the age of 9-10 are extremely weak.

I labored loads on baby troopers in Africa. I spent years working and finding out baby troopers. You realize what I used to be advised that they make the very best killers as a result of earlier than the age of I feel eight, you don't decide a conscience.

So you could possibly decide up a gun and you could possibly kill a complete village, and an grownup would say, "I’ve dedicated a horrible crime." A toddler wouldn’t. So that is what the Russians do, in a way. They're relying on the truth that we might take babies and we might start to russify them. And when you begin with youngsters, what’s that? That's the way forward for Ukraine. As a result of I'm going to get outdated, you're going to get outdated, however these youngsters are rising up now. So, in 20 years' time, they would be the subsequent leaders.

It's a really chilling strategic plan – indoctrination and russification. The Russians are actually expert at it. They've spent many years to good it. They know easy methods to do it. So, now we have to get it codified inside the legislation, and now we have to have it recognised. We now have to maintain writing about it. We now have to maintain going, now we have to maintain working with legal professionals to make use of these as instances. We now have many of those instances in our archives of youngsters who’ve been indoctrinated. Not simply youngsters, by the way in which, however adults as properly.

How do you select the precedence of what to doc?

Effectively, proper now, for us, it's indoctrination in youngsters.

How will we select it? I attempt to work with my staff on issues that others don’t – there's lots of civil society in Ukraine that’s actually good at gathering proof. So, we attempt to not overlap with them. You realize, we attempt to discover an space the place we might actually work and focus with our staff and do good work.

As a result of I simply don't need to work. I need to have an effect. You realize, I need to go to the Hague. I need to see the crimes towards Putin laid out methodically in order that we may help the ICC, in order that we may help the prosecutor normal in Kyiv.

We're actually fortunate as a result of the Ukrainian authorities is the primary authorities I've ever labored with that we work with. We work with the Workplace of the Prosecutor Normal. In different international locations the place I labored, the federal government is at all times your enemy.

You don't work with governments. Journalists, our job is to type of criticise authorities. However, we work with the prosecutor normal and he has been so useful to us. The previous one, now there's an interim. However the Workplace of the Prosecutor Normal has requested us to do sure issues, requested us to look into issues, they usually've been extremely supportive.

Justice isn't fast. It's sluggish. So long as you already know that there’s something taking place, that we’re documenting instances, then, it’s there. It's a document. Nobody can say this didn't occur. Effectively, yeah, it did.

As a result of now we have this testimony, we verified it, and that is taking place proper now. It's actually vital that we get that down on paper, on tape, on video in order that nobody can ever say in 10 years, 20 years that it didn't occur. As a result of you already know what?

That's how Russia works.

It's how Russia works. I used to be in a genocide in Bosnia, Srebrenica. The Putin machine is now working in Bosnia as properly. There are individuals who simply say it didn't occur. There was no genocide. There have been no individuals killed. It's like, what are you saying? It did occur. Srebrenica did occur. There have been 8,000 males and boys who have been killed, who have been taken to a forest. Individuals are inclined to rewrite historical past.

At The Reckoning Mission, if we will have stable proof, proof doesn’t lie. Proof shouldn’t be faux information. Proof shouldn’t be disinformation or propaganda. It’s simply proof.

Learn additionally: "I'm talking to you from your future": a conversation with Aida Čerkez, 30 years on from the siege of Sarajevo

"When Trump obtained elected, all of us knew the world goes to alter as a result of he's not a buddy of human rights"

You talked about different civil organisations. So far as I see, with slicing the assistance of USAID, there are much less organisations who doc warfare crimes in Ukraine. Did you are feeling this impression in your organisation or your work?

Look, when Trump obtained elected, all of us knew the world goes to alter as a result of he's not a buddy of human rights.

He hates the press, he hates journalists. That's why he creates his personal TruthSocial and Fox Information – these aren't journalists, they're propagandists. He hates actual journalists.

He hates the rule of legislation as a result of he breaks the legislation. He’s above the legislation. He even controls the Supreme Courtroom.

The third factor, human rights, he's tried to destroy it by closing down civil society. Personally, at The Reckoning Mission, we determined that we have been going to only put our heads down and preserve working, it doesn’t matter what.

So, we're simply placing our heads down. I at all times say it's one step, one foot in entrance of the opposite. You simply preserve going.

That's what we’re attempting to do.

How Trump's politics affect your work proper now, and the way can it affect the Ukrainian case in the Hague sooner or later?

In the long term, I don't suppose he’ll. I imply, I feel he tries to scare individuals, and that's why USAID was pulled. He's primarily targeted proper now on America, on deporting thousands and thousands of individuals. Individuals, lots of whom have the appropriate to be there. You realize, they have been born there but when they don't have the appropriate papers… I feel he's working with concern.

I went to America a month in the past and earlier than I obtained on the aircraft individuals referred to as me and stated, "Go away your pc at house, don't take your cellphone, erase your cellphone." I’ve nothing to cover. The one factor that I fear about is our archive of testimonies and that he can't entry on my cellphone.

I feel they need us to be afraid, they usually need us to be disheartened. However look, after that White Home horrible incident with President Zelenskyy [the meeting in the Oval Office – ed.], what did it do? It made Ukrainians stronger, proper?

Extra united.

Extra united as a result of his [Zelenskyy’s – ed.] reputation earlier than was not good, and now he's extra widespread than he was earlier than.

Individuals noticed it. Even individuals who checked out that and thought, "How are you going to humiliate an exhausted wartime president as a result of he's not carrying a swimsuit?" It was a horrible factor to observe, however it really introduced Ukraine again to the middle of reports. Additionally, it made individuals who won’t have been supportive of Zelenskyy earlier than supportive of him.

"The people who did it – it wasn't Putin"

How do you envision reworking collected testimonies into actual justice?

The best way that our researchers work is completely different from being a journalist asking questions. So, there are very particular questions {that a} prosecutor will search for.

If we're engaged on the case of the deported youngsters, the place we need to speak to individuals across the youngsters – their dad and mom, their caretakers, the individuals within the orphanage, wherever they have been final seen. Once we get them, the testimonies are, you already know, like a questionnaire. Very particular, very detailed. We then confirm it.

It's verified utilizing open-source intelligence, but additionally satellite tv for pc imagery, various things, just like the Kramatorsk prepare station, proper? To be sure that every part is stable.

Then, both the ICC or the Workplace of the Prosecutor Normal will need very particular issues, like, "I would like you to look if the title of this individual, a Russian officer, comes up in any of your testimonies in Kherson area or in Sumy or in Donbas."

Then, we give these particular information to the prosecutors to assist them construct their case. Now, the case towards Putin on the ICC is particularly in regards to the youngsters.

So, when will that occur, and can Putin really go to jail?

When individuals say to me, "Putin won’t ever go to jail," I say, "Have a look at what occurred to 2 dictators, Duterte of the Philippines and Slobodan Milošević of the previous Yugoslavia." Each of them killed many, many, many, many individuals. Each of them exercised tyranny over a civilian inhabitants. Each of them by no means thought they’d get anyplace close to the Hague.

The place did Slobodan Milošević die? In a jail cell on the Hague as a result of his authorities fell, and the brand new authorities handed him over to the Hague. Duterte – identical factor. He's now in jail within the Hague. So individuals say Putin won’t ever go, however we don't know that. We don't know when a brand new authorities might are available.

There could also be a coup d'etat, there could also be a junta, there might be something. He might be handed over as political leverage. So, that's one situation.

The opposite is that typically it's not as vital to get the massive leaders on the chain of command as it’s to get the people who dedicated the crimes.

Should you go to Bucha and also you speak to the witnesses who noticed their husbands or their sons being killed. The people who did it – it wasn't Putin, it was a low-level soldier from Chechnya or Buryatia or wherever they have been from. These are the people who pulled the set off or tortured or raped or killed. They should be in jail as a result of there may be justice.

Generally getting these individuals is to me extra vital. As a result of, going again to Bosnia, there are such a lot of individuals strolling round Bosnia immediately that dedicated horrible crimes. They murdered, they raped, they burnt homes, they did horrible issues, and they’re nonetheless strolling round. And the individuals they raped or survivors of households that they killed see them within the villages.

That's when justice is so vital. Actually, actually vital. I've interviewed so many Bosnian ladies who have been raped. There was a horrific systematic rape marketing campaign to rape Bosnian ladies and make them pregnant with Serb infants. When the warfare ended, these males that raped them didn't go to the Hague. They're nonetheless there.

These ladies need to see them every single day. So for me, getting these males is vital. It's vital for the society to heal. Generally it's not Putin that's important. It's the people who entered the villages. It's the individuals which are doing the indoctrination. The academics which are instructing youngsters and forcing them to be taught Russian language, Russian historical past, their model of a Russian world.

Do you imagine that justice will be absolutely served in Ukraine, and the worldwide tribunals are prepared to do that?

I feel the worldwide tribunals are prepared to do that, completely.

The largest workplace of the ICC on the planet is in Ukraine, in Kyiv. So, I feel that's already an indication. I feel the willingness of the prosecutor normal in Ukraine to work immediately with the ICC and ICJ, with different mechanisms like common jurisdiction reveals that there's an actual pathway.

Does justice work? I’ve to imagine that. In any other case, I couldn't do the work I do. And I do suppose that the arm of justice ultimately reaches. We now have to imagine that the work we're doing goes to have an effect. In any other case, we couldn't get up within the morning and do it.

How do you envision justice for Ukraine?

I'm hopeful. I actually am. Initially, there are lots of people targeted on it.

Second is that the Ukrainian individuals themselves are going to demand it. Realizing the character of the Ukrainian individuals, which could be very sturdy. You realize, you're not victims. You're not people who sit again and say, "Have a look at what occurred to us." You might be like, "We're going to struggle again." I don't suppose the Ukrainian individuals would enable justice to not be delivered.

Additionally, do not forget that the home courts are working proper now. So, there will likely be worldwide justice. The crime of aggression – whether or not that tribunal occurs, I imagine it should, is basically vital.

The ICC, whether or not that's arrange as a tribunal, a hybrid court docket, perhaps one thing that occurs right here, that's actually vital and that's already occurring. Each convention I am going to, whether or not it's Davos or Munich, the precedence is Ukraine. And the Europeans are backing Ukraine as a result of they're afraid.

They're afraid that if Ukraine goes, what's subsequent? Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania? And what comes after that?

If Putin wasn't stopped in Ukraine, would he be in Warsaw tomorrow? Would he get to Paris? I don't suppose he'd get to Paris, however he would possibly get to Latvia. He would possibly take Estonia.

It’s a matter of safety in addition to solidarity with Ukraine.

"I've by no means been goal. I’ll at all times be on the aspect of people who find themselves struggling"

You labored on many wars and you’ve got seen loads. What’s the story that impressed you essentially the most in Ukraine, perhaps which individual whom you speak to?

I feel Bucha. Speaking to a few of the moms who had misplaced their… There was one mom, her son had been taken from the road after which tortured and killed, and her ache at a baby of her struggling that a lot.

But additionally equally a few of the Ukrainian troopers I spoke to who have been similar to had misplaced their arms or their legs they usually nonetheless imagine a lot in what they're combating for. In addition they know, "I'm not simply combating for Ukraine, I'm combating for one thing larger." It's about democracy. It's about combating for what you imagine is correct.

Total, the complete nation impresses me as a result of I've by no means seen individuals who function with no sense of sufferer. As a substitute, it's an actual sense of "we’re pushed, you're not going to interrupt us, we’re Ukrainian."

It's emotional, and it's very highly effective to see that. It's an incredible nation.

What’s a very powerful whenever you speak to these individuals who misplaced the family members or perhaps have been tortured themselves?

It's actually onerous. Should you're taking testimony, it's very completely different from being a journalist. The testimonies have to face up in court docket.

One time I keep in mind being in Kharkiv and I used to be with a colleague of mine, we have been interviewing this outdated man who was from… Are you aware that a part of jap Kharkiv that's fully destroyed?

Saltivka, yeah.

He was dwelling in an house, it was fully bombed out. He was there alone. He was so traumatised that we couldn't use his testimony as a result of you’ll be able to't use traumatised individuals's testimonies in court docket. People who find themselves traumatised, their sense of reminiscence is distorted. However we realised we couldn't use his testimony, however he wished to speak and we simply listened to him.

The best ability {that a} journalist or a social employee or anybody might have is empathy, is to place your self into their sneakers. What would I really feel like if I have been an outdated individual, having to be evacuated from the house I've lived in my complete life, abandoning my animals and my roots, my house? I don't need to be a refugee going to Poland. I don’t need to be a refugee going to Kyiv. I need to keep in my house. So, I attempt to put myself of their sneakers.

That's very onerous as a result of it's very painful. Journalists are supposed to be goal. Personally, I've by no means been goal. I’ll at all times be on the aspect of people who find themselves struggling.

How do you defend your self and your staff from the burnout on this case as a result of it's very traumatic?

Yeah. I feel you defend your self by having religion in what you do. Your work goes to avoid wasting you. Your work, believing in what you’re doing, is vital – a very powerful factor to have throughout wartime. I do know with my staff, my Ukrainian staff, that they really feel they're doing one thing.

In any other case, they’d really feel so helpless as a result of the horrible factor {that a} warfare does is it strips you of energy. You don't have the ability to finish the warfare. You don't have the ability to guard individuals. However you do have the ability to put in writing about it. You do have the ability to inform a narrative. You do have an influence in a solution to management the narrative, to ensure it's a truthful narrative.

It’s important to preserve believing that. It's actually onerous to try this when a warfare's been occurring for 3 years and also you're actually drained. You need it to finish, and also you desire a regular life. You’ll be able to't depart the nation simply. Many individuals I do know say they're not having youngsters proper now as a result of they don't need to begin a household. They don't need to convey a baby into the world proper now.

Battle is helplessness and I feel the one solution to overcome that helplessness is to have some sense of energy by controlling your personal future. You could possibly write about it. You could possibly preserve a diary. You could possibly take pictures. You’ll be able to preserve the a part of you alive, which is hope. The warfare will finish. I don't know if it's going to finish with Trump or his circumstances, however it should finish. It completely will finish.

When it does, life will start once more, after which you’ll have to put your life again collectively. However you’ll always remember what occurred to you, and also you won’t have the ability to forgive. That will likely be part of you perpetually.

However, not directly, it makes you stronger to understand when the day comes and the warfare's over and you could possibly take a aircraft from Kyiv to Warsaw or to Greece or to Italy or to America. You're going to essentially recognize that airplane in a method that you simply by no means have earlier than.

I didn't take a bathe in Bosnia for months and months on finish, and I might let you know after I obtained someplace the place there was scorching water, I by no means have taken without any consideration electrical energy or scorching water ever once more. As a result of I lived for years with out electrical energy. I'm not the identical individual I used to be earlier than I went to Bosnia and I'm actually glad. I really feel privileged to have lived by means of that.

In considered one of your interviews, you talked about that reminiscence it's a type of resistance. How can we as Ukrainians protect the reminiscence of this warfare?

You write about it, you’re taking pictures, you draw, you create artwork, you create theater items, you employ artwork or phrases in a method in order that it by no means is forgotten as a result of it's precisely what I stated. In 30 years' time, whoever's in control of Russia at the moment will attempt to rewrite this complete story – "they didn't invade Ukraine, the Ukrainians invaded Moscow. There was no Bucha. There was no Irpin. There was no Mariupol." It's all lies, however you’ll be able to say, "No, there was as a result of right here is my household's diary." That's why I at all times inform individuals to put in writing. It's like a very powerful resistance you have got is that you simply preserve a diary.

Not simply your journalistic work, however preserve a diary as a result of your youngsters, your grandchildren, your great-grandchildren are going to learn that and say, "Wow, my grandmother had an app on her cellphone referred to as Air Alert. And when there was a drone, it went off, they usually needed to go to a parking storage and sleep there!" or "Wow, 19,000 youngsters have been taken from Ukraine and placed on buses and brought to Russia, and their names have been stolen from them!" The Russians say that didn't occur, however it did occur as a result of right here's an inventory of the names.

So, yeah, reminiscence is our best resistance. Reminiscence and documentation. As a result of then nobody might ever say you made it up. It's proof, and proof doesn't lie.

Alina Poliakova, Ukrainska Pravda